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Judge Ronald PaniotoRecuses Himself sua sponte |
PAS MISTRIAL |
The Abuser's Custodial Rights To The Children In This Case Is Now Over 1,400 Days |
cincinnatipas.com
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Judge Ronald PaniotoRecuses Himself sua sponte |
PAS MISTRIAL |
The Abuser's Custodial Rights To The Children In This Case Is Now Over 1,400 Days |
Other Pages On This Site
Declares A Mistrial
February 17, 2004
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Hamilton County Domestic Relations Court
Court transcript excerpts from the three hour proceedings prior to "mistrial". Family names and others redacted, and certain other testimony as well. |
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1 1 COURT OF COMMON PLEAS 2 DIVISION OF DOMESTIC RELATIONS 3 HAMILTON COUNTY, OHIO 4 DR. (redacted), : 5 PLAINTIFF : 6 VS. : Case No. DR(redacted) 7 Teresa (redacted), : Transcript of Proceedings 8 DEFENDANT : 9 APPEARANCES: 10 On Behalf of Plaintiff: 11 12 On Behalf of Defendant: 13 and C. RICHARD MARTIN, ESQUIRE 14 15 - - - 16 BE IT REMEMBERED that the above-entitled cause 17 came on for hearing on the 17h day of February, 2004 before 18 the Honorable Ronald A. Panioto, Judge, in the Court of 19 Common Pleas, Division of Domestic Relations, Hamilton 20 County, Ohio, and was thereafter transcribed by Dianna Robin 21 Grippa, RMR, an Official Court Reporter in and for the County 22 of Hamilton, State of Ohio. 3
1 (February 17th, 2004) 2 MR. DUCOTE: Morning, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Morning. We're ready. 4 MR. DUCOTE: We're ready, your Honor. They 5 filed the first pleading, I think. 6 MR. MASTRUSERIO: That's not correct, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: My procedure and policy always has 9 been that the person who is adversely affected by the 10 decision of the parenting specialist goes forward, so I look 11 for you to go forward. 12 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. Fine, your Honor. We call 13 Dr. (redacted). 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, can I have a 16 point of clarification in regards to one item before we 17 start? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 MR. MASTRUSERIO: As you're well aware, the 20 Court had ordered a psychiatric report of Dr. Borack, and 21 counsel in the past two years has on at least two occasions 22 tried to supplement that particular report in the record. In 23 the earlier part, we had objected because he was trying to 24 bring it in under a Rule 60(B) motion, which we didn't feel 25 was the appropriate time. But now it is the appropriate 4
1 time, and I want to know counsel's position, if he was going 2 to ask that the report be included in the record. If what 3 the Court's position is continues, it was a court-appointed 4 physician. I would assume it would be part of the court 5 record. 6 MR. DUCOTE: Absolutely not, your Honor. It's 7 hearsay. It's objectionable in many, many ways. If they 8 want this into the record, they can bring in Dr. Borack, have 9 him testify so he can be properly cross-examined. The 10 position of Mr. Mastruserio and the Court all along has been 11 that Dr. Borack's report has been out of another file, is not 12 part of the record, was never introduced into evidence. 13 The Court denied twice, I believe, our motion to have 14 it supplemented or made part of the record for the purposes 15 of appeal saying that it wasn't in the record. It's still 16 not in the record. It can't just be simply stuck into the 17 record. It has to be properly introduced into evidence, and 18 we would object to any reference, any offering of any report 19 from Dr. Borack. 20 MR. MASTRUSERIO: The reason I broached the 21 subject, your Honor, is that, if you recall, I believe that 22 Dr. Borack has been in court and has testified, and I believe 23 he has identified the report in an earlier proceeding. I 24 wanted to clarify that so there isn't any confusion. 25 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Objection will 5
1 be sustained. 2 MR. DUCOTE: Thank you. 3 DR. (redacted) 4 the plaintiff herein, after having been first duly sworn and 5 cautioned, was examined and testified as follows: 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Would you state your name and address, please. 9 A. (redacted), (redacted), 10 Cincinnati, Ohio. 11 Q. Okay. And you're the father of (redacted) and 12 (redacted)? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You're married to (Kelly redacted) (redacted)? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen the book 17 "Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children 18 Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable and Volatile 19 Relationship," that was written by Christine Anne Lawson?
20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. When did you first see this book? 22 A. Summer of 2003. 23 Q. And where did you first see it? 24 A. That book was purchased by my wife (Kelly redacted). 25 Q. And where was it purchased by your wife (Kelly redacted)? 6
1 A. I believe she got it from Amazon. 2 Q. Now, were you aware that she was going to 3 purchase it before she purchased it? 4 A. Um, we had -- no -- well, no. 5 Q. Well, what was the first time that you actually 6 knew that she had purchased the book? 7 A. The summer of 2003. 8 Q. But how is it that you came to know it? What 9 was the event that happened? Did she come and say, oh, here, 10 I bought this book? 11 A. No. The event was started by our son (redacted), 12 who, for several months -- 13 Q. That's not my question, Dr. (redacted). 14 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor. 15 I believe -- 16 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 17 A. The book came from (redacted) our son, who, for 18 several months prior to the purchase of the book, he would 19 come over, he would ask a lot of questions, what is paranoia, 20 what is borderline personality, what is obsessive compulsive 21 disorder. And he had mentioned that at his mom's, she would 22 be often on the Internet and -- 23 MR. DUCOTE: I would object to hearsay, your 24 Honor. It's not responsive to the question. I asked him how 25 he learned -- 7
1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 A. And so through that, (redacted)'s conversations 3 with asking us, my wife and I, why does Mom act the way she 4 does, why does she always ask questions on -- 5 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, object to the hearsay. 6 It's not responsive. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. Just answer the 8 question, Doctor. Don't volunteer any information. 9 A. Could you please repeat the question? 10 Q. The question is, can you describe the event or 11 the incident upon which you learned that your wife bought 12 this book? 13 A. She told me. 14 Q. Okay. And did she show you the book when she 15 got it? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Now, did she tell you why she got the 18 book? For what purpose? What was she going to do with the 19 book? 20 A. To try and help our family understand the 21 issues that our son -- well, my son and daughter, (redacted) -- 22 were raising about the ongoing constant battle we were 23 facing. 24 Q. Now, did she ask you ahead of time whether or 25 not this was something that she should do? 8
1 A. We had discussed -- specifically about buying 2 that particular book? 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. Did she discuss with you whether she 6 should sit down and discuss and read this book to (redacted)? 7 A. I'm sorry. Could you please repeat that? 8 Q. Did she discuss with you whether or not it 9 would be a good idea to sit down and read this book to 10 (redacted)? 11 A. She never asked me that question, no. 12 Q. Okay. Did she discuss with you at all whether 13 or not this book should be shown to (redacted)? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what did you tell her? 16 A. I told her that we shouldn't sit and read it to 17 him. 18 THE COURT: What? I'm sorry. 19 DR. (redacted): We should not read it to him. 20 THE COURT: We should not read it to him? 21 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 22 BY MR. DUCOTE: 23 Q. Okay. What did you tell her should be done 24 with the book vis-a-vis (redacted)? 25 A. We should use that book to guide our responses 9
1 to his questions on what was personality disorders. 2 Q. Now, (redacted) is how old? 3 A. He's 11. 4 Q. Okay. So at 11 years old, (redacted) was 5 interested in psychiatric diagnoses, you're telling this 6 Court? 7 A. No, he was not interested in psychiatric 8 diagnoses. 9 Q. You did say he was interested in paranoia 10 borderline personality disorder. 11 A. He was asking us what those terms meant. 12 Q. Okay. Now, have you read this book? 13 A. Very briefly. 14 Q. Have you looked through it? 15 A. I've read parts of it. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But not the -- I don't have a good knowledge of 18 the whole book. 19 Q. Well, you're aware that this book was the 20 subject of a great part of your wife's deposition last month? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Since then, have you looked at the book? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you aware that this book gives different 25 terms to different types of mothers? 10
1 A. I was made aware of that during your 2 deposition. 3 Q. For example, the "make-believe mother", the 4 "waif mother", the "hermit mother", the "witch mother"? 5 A. That's in the table of contents. 6 Q. Now, did you ever learn that your wife was 7 actually sitting down with (redacted) and showing him the book, 8 discussing the book, the contents of the book with him? 9 A. I don't believe that happened. 10 Q. You don't believe that happened? You weren't 11 at her deposition? 12 A. (Nodding head). 13 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, I believe the 14 question has been answered. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Since your wife's deposition, have you and her 18 altered the policy regarding her use of this book with 19 (redacted)? 20 A. We've decided not to discuss personality 21 disorders with him. 22 Q. Okay. And at what point did you decide not to 23 do that anymore? 24 A. Probably sometime this year. 25 Q. Well, was it since the deposition? 11
1 A. No. It was before. 2 Q. Before the deposition? 3 A. (Nodding head). Yes, sir. 4 Q. What made you decide to stop doing that? 5 A. Because we felt that with all the turmoil going 6 on, that it would be more confusing to (redacted) to try and 7 decipher all the terms he was asking us, and we decided that 8 it just wasn't in his best interests to try and explain to 9 him, in our opinion, what was the cause of his mom's behavior 10 of constantly asking him questions about abuse, about what he 11 does at our house and along those lines. And it just felt 12 that I wasn't -- it wasn't my expertise to do that. 13 Q. Well, what mental health professionals did you 14 consult about these issues? 15 A. No one. 16 Q. None. And what mental health professionals did 17 you consult about whether it was a good idea to discuss 18 borderline personality with an 11 year old? 19 A. Could you please repeat the question? 20 Q. Yeah. What mental health person -- what mental 21 health professionals did you discuss whether or not it was a 22 good idea to discuss this borderline personality book with, 23 at that time, (redacted)? 24 A. I didn't discuss that with anyone. 25 Q. Now, have you -- has (redacted) seen any mental 12
1 health professionals since -- well, let me rephrase that. 2 When was the last time (redacted), to your knowledge, saw a 3 mental health professional? 4 A. To my knowledge, it was Doctors Boat and 5 Olafson. 6 Q. And when was that? 7 A. I believe that occurred in the spring of 2001, 8 I believe. 9 Q. Now, do you know whether or not your wife ever 10 uses the term "crazy" to (redacted) vis-a-vis his mother or 11 discuss -- in describing his mother? 12 A. I've heard that term used to describe Teresa's 13 behavior with this abuse issue. But we always make it a 14 point to tell (redacted) that his -- we do not believe his 15 mother's crazy. 16 Q. Well, what do you and your wife tell (redacted) 17 regarding his mother and the context of the term "crazy"? 18 A. That we believe that the ongoing battles of 19 abuse, custody, visitation is crazy. That's the -- we're 20 very careful to always pretense that with telling (redacted), 21 "We're not saying your mother is crazy. We just believe the 22 actions and what's going on is." 23 Q. Okay. So you say, in effect, "What your mother 24 is doing is crazy, but we want to distinguish between what 25 she does as being crazy and her being crazy," right? 13
1 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I believe the question has 2 been answered, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 A. Yeah. I'm not sure that that -- I don't 5 understand your question, to be honest with you. 6 Q. Okay. I'll rephrase. You and your wife do 7 tell (redacted) that what his mother does is crazy, right? 8 A. What we say is we believe some of the actions, 9 some of the things that occur in the course of the divorce 10 is. 11 Q. Is crazy? 12 A. Is crazy. 13 Q. And you use that term to (redacted) relative to 14 his mother? 15 A. To her behavior, with the course of the 16 divorce, not specifically calling her crazy. 17 Q. Okay. But you use the word "crazy" when you 18 discuss his mother, right? 19 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor -- 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 A. In the context -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. When I rule you don't 23 have to answer, okay? 24 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 25 BY MR. DUCOTE: 14
1 Q. When was the last time, to your knowledge, that 2 was done? 3 A. I don't know. It's been a while. I can't 4 recall using that term recently. 5 Q. Do you know Kira Kerstine? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And who is she? 8 A. She's the school psychologist at All Saints 9 School. 10 Q. Did Kira Kerstine ever tell you that -- well, 11 let me back up a little bit. Do you recall an emergency 12 motion that Mr. Mastruserio prepared in December of -- I 13 believe it was December of 2002, just before Christmas? 14 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, if counsel's 15 referring to a document that I prepared and did not file with 16 the court later, did not present the motion to the Court, I'm 17 going to object. It was never -- 18 MR. DUCOTE: It absolutely is relevant, for 19 this reason. First of all, Mr. Mastruserio sent it to us 20 indicating he was filing it and having a hearing on it. 21 Second of all, there are recommendations in there -- in that 22 motion that are absolutely false. And so I think the fact 23 that it was never filed is not relevant at this point. 24 THE COURT: Sustain the objection. 25 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Thank you. 15
1 BY MR. DUCOTE: 2 Q. Did Kira Kerstine ever tell you that (redacted) 3 told her that his mother had him go make complaints about you 4 to her? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever make representation of such? 7 A. I spoke with her and asked her if she could 8 give me some details and the circumstances involved in the 9 accusations made, and she wouldn't discuss it. 10 Q. Now, how do you characterize Teresa's conduct 11 to (redacted)? Do you do it the same way? 12 A. No. It's a much different relationship with 13 (redacted) and Teresa. (redacted) -- 14 THE COURT: I think for the record we ought to 15 say who Teresa and (redacted) are. 16 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. Teresa (redacted) being your ex-wife, and 19 (redacted) being your daughter, (redacted) being your son, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And (redacted) is seven years old? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. Do you ever use the term "crazy" with 24 (redacted) in discussing her mother? 25 A. No. 16
1 MR. DUCOTE: Your Honor, I'm going to ask this 2 this book be marked as Defendant's Exhibit One. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit One marked for identification.)
4 MR. DUCOTE: I offer to introduce, file into 5 evidence, and I'll take these tabs off. Offer into 6 introduce, file into evidence, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Have you seen the book, Mr. 8 Mastruserio? 9 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I saw it briefly at the 10 deposition. I have not read the book, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: It was identified, I believe, 13 during the deposition. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DUCOTE: 16 Q. Dr. (redacted), do you believe that at this 17 point your children need any sort of therapy? 18 A. I think that the children need some guidance in 19 understanding the ongoing accusations. 20 MR. DUCOTE: Again, your Honor, I'm going to 21 ask that he answer the question directly, the direct 22 question, do they need therapy. 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor -- 24 MR. DUCOTE: He wants to give a speech about 25 ongoing accusations. It was a direct question. 17
1 THE COURT: Doctor, you have to answer yes or 2 no. And then if you feel it needs an explanation, you may 3 explain your answer, okay, if it needs an explanation. 4 DR. (redacted): Yes, sir. 5 THE COURT: If not, just answer yes or no. You 6 want to repeat the question? 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. The question was do your children need therapy 9 at this point? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how long have they needed therapy? 12 A. Probably since -- I don't know. I mean, I 13 don't understand your question, really. 14 Q. How long have they needed therapy? 15 A. I would probably -- since 1997. 16 Q. And have you taken them to therapy? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you made any effort whatsoever to obtain 19 therapy for them? 20 A. Yes. I made some telephone calls. 21 Q. And when was that? 22 A. All through -- probably since 1999. 23 Q. So you're still making phone calls trying to 24 get therapy for them? 25 A. No, I haven't made any calls since last year. 18
1 Q. Okay. Have the kids seen any mental health 2 professional in the last two years? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Does Teresa have, in your view, any positive 5 parenting attributes? 6 A. I think she has potential to. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 8 DR. (redacted): She has the potential to. 9 BY MR. DUCOTE: 10 Q. So as of now, she has no positive parenting 11 attributes, correct, in your view? 12 A. I haven't had any contact with her. I don't 13 know. 14 Q. Can't think of one? 15 A. I think that she's the mother of my children, 16 of (redacted) and (redacted). 17 Q. So some chromosomes? That would be it? Some 18 genes? 19 A. I think that she cares for them. 20 Q. Um-hum. In fact, it's your intent for your 21 current wife (Kelly redacted), to, in essence, be their mother, correct? 22 A. No. 23 MR. DUCOTE: I don't have any other questions 24 at this point, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you very much, Doctor. You 19
1 may step down. Thank you. 2 MR. DUCOTE: Call (Kelly redacted) (redacted). 3 (The witness was called.) 4 (Kelly redacted) (redacted) 5 the witness herein, after having been first duly sworn and 6 cautioned, was examined and testified as follows: 7 THE COURT: Give us your full name, please, 8 spell your last name. Speak out nice and loud so she can 9 hear you. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. (Kelly redacted) (redacted), 11 (redacted). 12 THE COURT: And your address, please? 13 THE WITNESS: (redacted), and 14 that's Cincinnati, Ohio, (redacted). 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. The door opened and 16 closed. (redacted)? 17 THE WITNESS: (redacted). Cincinnati, Ohio, (redacted). 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 CROSS-EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. DUCOTE: 21 Q. Good morning, Miss (redacted). 22 A. Morning. 23 Q. You're the current wife of Dr. (redacted) 24 (redacted)? 25 A. Correct. 20
1 Q. And when were the two of you married? 2 A. March 11th, 2000. 3 Q. Have you ever met Teresa (redacted)? 4 A. Brief circumstances, yes. 5 Q. Okay. And when was that? 6 A. I first met Teresa (redacted) in June. I take 7 that back. July of 1997. 8 Q. Okay. And how much time did you spend with her 9 at that point? 10 A. Probably about five minutes. 11 Q. Okay. And how about after that? 12 A. Very brief interchanges. Usually upon the 13 exchange of the children, so -- 14 THE COURT: You have to keep your voice up, 15 okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 BY MR. DUCOTE: 18 Q. What's the longest time you ever spent talking 19 to Teresa (redacted)? 20 A. Five minutes. 21 Q. Okay. Now, do you work outside the home? 22 A. Currently, I do not. 23 Q. Okay. And what was the last employment 24 position you had? 25 A. I was employed by Health South Corporation. 21
1 Q. And in doing what? 2 A. I was basically doing administrative work. 3 Q. Do you have any mental health training or 4 anything? 5 A. No, I do not. 6 Q. Now, do you recall at some point you were the 7 supervisor of visitations between Dr. (redacted) and his 8 kids? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. And do you know what period of time that was? 11 A. That lasted from July of 1997 through February 12 of 1998. 13 Q. Now, how is it that you came to be the 14 supervisor? 15 A. I had been present with (redacted) and 16 (redacted) and (redacted) one day at Tri-Health Pavilion. It's a 17 swimming pool. We spent the day with the kids swimming and 18 playing various games. That particular day became a day that 19 Teresa accused (redacted) of abusing (redacted). (redacted) was made aware 20 of that accusation -- 21 Q. My question was who made you the supervisor? 22 How did you get to be the supervisor? 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, he asked her how 24 she came to be the supervisor, and she as answering his 25 question. 22
1 MR. DUCOTE: It wasn't responsive, the long 2 narrative with all kind of speeches. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 4 A. Children's Services was contacted by Teresa in 5 July. (redacted) was made aware that his visitation was 6 automatically terminated. This was going to go through, 7 like, an investigation with Children's Services. The case 8 worker's name at the time was Denise Orchard. I had been 9 there that day, and I felt -- I asked (redacted), I'm like, "Do you 10 want me to call Children's Services as a witness?" 11 Basically, I was there. I saw nothing happen. He said, "If 12 you want to do that, go ahead." He gave me the name of the 13 person to contact. I did contact Denise Orchard, who told me 14 at the time -- 15 THE COURT: Not what they told you. 16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 17 THE COURT: Not what they told you. You can't 18 tell us what they told you. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 BY MR. DUCOTE: 21 Q. Did you offer yourself as a supervisor or did 22 somebody ask you to be the supervisor? 23 A. Denise Orchard mentioned that when -- 24 THE COURT: Ma'am, the question -- make it real 25 easy, okay. Did you offer yourself or did somebody ask. 23
1 That was the question. 2 A. Denise Orchard asked if I would be telling to 3 act as supervisor when his visitation resumed. 4 Q. Now, at that time, what was your relationship 5 with Dr. (redacted)? 6 A. I was a friend of Dr. (redacted)'s. 7 Q. Okay. And at some -- were you dating him at 8 that point? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And at some point, did you begin dating him? 11 A. At some point, yes. 12 Q. And that -- was that while you were the 13 supervisor of visitation? 14 A. No. 15 Q. It was after? 16 A. It was after. 17 Q. Okay. You never dated him while you were 18 supervising the visits? 19 A. Sometime after, yes. 20 Q. Sometime after the supervision ended or 21 sometime after -- 22 A. Sometime after the supervision -- sometime 23 after the supervision began. 24 Q. Began. 25 A. Correct. 24
1 Q. You began dating Dr. (redacted)? 2 A. We were spending a lot of time together. The 3 supervision schedule was -- it was pretty -- I mean, there 4 was a lot of time spent together. 5 Q. You were dating him, correct? 6 A. Not at the beginning. Not when -- not when 7 supervision started, we were not dating. 8 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. Somewhere along 9 the way while you were supervising the visitation between Dr. 10 (redacted) and the children, you began a romantic 11 relationship with him, did you not? 12 A. Not romantic. We began dating. We began going 13 out to dinner, going out, you know, with other people, you 14 know. We began talking in earnest relationships, about, you 15 know -- 16 Q. That's not dating? 17 A. Things began getting more, you know, serious. 18 Q. You don't call that dating him? 19 A. I -- now, I don't -- I don't have a time line 20 for how things, you know -- 21 Q. Right. But it was while you were supervising 22 the visits? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. I mean, because like I said, the supervised 25
1 period lasted from July of 1997 through February of 1998. 2 Q. Okay. And as of February of 1998, at that 3 point, did you have a sexual relationship with Dr. 4 (redacted)? 5 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, is that relevant? 6 MR. DUCOTE: I think it is. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Okay. 9 A. So I answer that question? Okay. In February 10 of 1998, no. 11 Q. Do you recall when you testified in court? Do 12 you remember when that was? 13 A. That would have been February 4th. 14 Q. Of 1998? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. And at that point, did you inform the 17 Court that you had a romantic relationship with Dr. 18 (redacted)? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Did you ever inform Children's Protective 21 Service that you had a romantic relationship with Dr. 22 (redacted)? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. Did you ever inform anybody? 25 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, I don't think she's 26
1 under a duty to inform anyone if she gets romantic with 2 somebody. 3 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Now, do you believe that (redacted) and (redacted) 6 need therapy? 7 A. I do, yes. 8 Q. Okay. And have you discussed this with Dr. 9 (redacted)? 10 A. Yes, we've discussed it. 11 Q. Okay. And what have you done to get them 12 therapy? 13 THE COURT: I sorry. When you turn your back, 14 I can't hear you. 15 MR. DUCOTE: I'm sorry, your Honor. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Have you done anything to try to get them 18 therapy? 19 A. I don't feel it's my position to get them 20 therapy in the position I'm in. 21 Q. Okay. So you don't play a role in the mental 22 health issues with the children in that sense? 23 A. In as far as obtaining therapy for them from a 24 professional, no. 25 Q. Okay. Well has your husband told you that the 27
1 kids need therapy? 2 A. As I said, we've discussed their need for 3 therapy. 4 Q. Okay. And how long have you been discussing 5 the need for therapy with your husband? 6 A. Quite some time. 7 Q. Okay. About how long? 8 A. A number of years. 9 Q. Okay. 10 THE COURT: What did you say, ma'am? 11 THE WITNESS: A number of years. 12 BY MR. DUCOTE: 13 Q. And your husband's a physician, right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. You all make good money, right? He makes a 16 good income, correct? 17 A. It can be afforded, a professional, correct. 18 Q. You got medical insurance? 19 A. Medical, correct. 20 Q. Okay. Well, what reason has Dr. (redacted) 21 given you, if any, for the fact that the kids have never 22 gotten any therapy? 23 A. It is both of our beliefs that no professional 24 in this city wants to get involved in this particular case. 25 Q. So that's what Dr. (redacted)'s telling you? 28
1 A. I firmly believe that. I've heard that myself. 2 Q. That's not my question. Is that what Dr. 3 (redacted) told you was the reason that the kids aren't in 4 therapy? 5 A. That's what we've discussed, yes. 6 Q. Okay. And when did -- when was that conclusion 7 stated by your husband? 8 A. It's a belief that we've held for a while as 9 we've gone through this process because any of the 10 professionals that get involved are basically in fear of 11 being drug into court. 12 Q. And you've talked to these professionals, have 13 you? 14 A. I've talked to several of them, yes. 15 Q. What mental health professionals have you 16 talked to? 17 A. Dr. Stuart Bassman. 18 Q. And you've talked to him about treating the 19 kids, therapy? 20 A. Did he think that anyone he knew in the city -- 21 Q. That's not the question. 22 THE COURT: No, now she's answering your 23 question. 24 MR. DUCOTE: No, my question was did you talk 25 to him about seeing the kids in therapy. That was the 29
1 question. 2 THE COURT: That's her answer. Go ahead. 3 Answer. 4 A. I asked him would he -- did he think that 5 anyone would see these children. 6 Q. When did you have that discussion with him? 7 A. Somewhat recently. 8 Q. How recent? 9 A. I would say the past two months. 10 Q. Okay. Past two months. Well, let's go back 11 over the years. What other mental health professionals have 12 you talked to about seeing the kids in therapy? 13 A. Dr. Boat and Dr. Olafson. 14 Q. Well, they saw the kids, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Boat and Dr. Olafson finished 17 their work several years ago. Have you talked to anyone else 18 besides Dr. Bassman? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Has your husband told you that he 21 specifically talked to any particular individuals about 22 whether they would treat the kids? 23 A. Not that I can recall. 24 Q. Okay. Now -- 25 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach the witness, your 30
1 Honor? 2 THE COURT: Yes, please. 3 BY MR. DUCOTE: 4 Q. I'm going to show you what's been introduced 5 into evidence as Defendant's Exhibit One.
6 THE COURT: It hasn't been introduced yet. 7 MR. DUCOTE: It was offered. 8 THE COURT: It's just been marked. 9 MR. DUCOTE: It's been offered. 10 THE COURT: It's been offered. We haven't 11 ruled whether or not -- 12 MR. DUCOTE: Can we get a ruling at this point? 13 THE COURT: That's okay. You can still talk to 14 her about it. 15 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Show you what's been marked as Defendant's 18 Exhibit One and ask you if you've seen that book before? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And where have you seen that book before? 21 A. I purchased that book myself. 22 Q. Okay. And where did you purchase it? 23 A. I purchased that book through the Internet. 24 Q. Okay. And have you discussed that book with 25 anybody? 31
1 A. I discussed this book with my husband and with 2 (redacted). 3 Q. Okay. Now -- 4 THE COURT: What was the last part again? 5 THE WITNESS: I discussed it with my husband 6 and with (redacted). 7 THE COURT: And with (redacted). Thank you. 8 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 9 BY MR. DUCOTE: 10 Q. Now, did you discuss the book with your husband 11 before or after you purchased it? 12 A. Before and after. 13 Q. Okay. Well, tell me the discussion that you 14 had with him before you purchased it. 15 A. The discussion that I had with him before I 16 purchased it, I told him that (redacted) had come home from a 17 visit at Teresa's and he asked me, "What is borderline 18 personality? And could that be what's wrong with my mom and 19 her family?" This caught me off guard. I said, "I don't 20 know," and honestly, I just kind of tried to change the 21 subject. So I told (redacted) about the conversation, and he told 22 me, basically, let's just let it lie, you know. 23 (redacted) on a subsequent, you know, day, asked again, 24 you know, about borderline personality. "Do you think that 25 may be -- could that, you know, be why mom continually, you 32
1 know, tells me that I'm abused, tells me that I have to lie 2 to other people about being abused? Is that why she's, you 3 know, afraid of, you know, people? Always, you know, 4 somebody's always out to get her? Is that why she's afraid 5 of shark attacks? Is that why she's afraid of the West Nile 6 Virus? Is that why she's afraid of sniper bullets?" 7 Q. (redacted) is saying all this? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Is this a conversation you had with your 10 husband? 11 A. I related these conversations to my husband. 12 Q. Okay. So what was his response? Go get this 13 book? 14 A. His response was, you know, just try and calm 15 him down. Just, you know, I'll talk to him too. So, you 16 know, we had these conversations with (redacted), you know. 17 Basically the conversations rely on just trying to calm him 18 down. "It's not your fault, (redacted)." Just, you know -- 19 Q. Right. Well, did you ever ask (redacted) where 20 did you hear the term "borderline personality disorder"? 21 A. I did not. I actually asked my husband. I 22 said, "Do you know, do you have any idea --" 23 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. The question 24 is did you ever ask (redacted) where did he hear the term 25 "borderline personality disorder"? 33
1 A. I did not. 2 Q. Okay. Now, that didn't strike you as odd that 3 an 11 year old, if that happened, came and asked you about 4 borderline personality disorder, where he heard that word? 5 A. I think it's very odd. But you have to 6 understand, (redacted) is not a normal 11-year-old kid. 7 Q. Okay. So did your husband -- okay. So did 8 your husband know in the advance of your purchasing the book 9 that you were going to get this book? 10 A. I went to him and I said, "He's asking again 11 --" 12 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. It's real 13 specific. Before you purchased this book, was your husband 14 aware of the fact that you were going to purchase this book? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. In fact, you went on the Internet with 17 (redacted), in (redacted)'s presence, to look for books on 18 borderline personality disorder, did you not? 19 A. That's not true. 20 Q. It's not? 21 A. That's not true. 22 Q. Did you -- what did -- okay. What was the 23 first -- well, at some point you went on the Internet? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Okay. Now, at that point did you tell (redacted) 34
1 that you were going to try to research and find some stuff on 2 borderline personality? 3 A. He said, "What is it?" I said, "I'm not sure. 4 I'll look into it." 5 Q. So you had never heard the term before, 6 borderline personalities? 7 A. I had heard it. 8 Q. And you discussed that with your husband, 9 right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And that was something that you all had 12 discussed, a belief that that's what Teresa suffered from, 13 right? 14 A. It was a concern of ours, but definitely not 15 one that related to (redacted). 16 Q. Okay. So you and your husband are talking 17 about Teresa having borderline personality disorder, right? 18 A. Not in front of (redacted). 19 Q. Not in front of (redacted), okay. And then 20 suddenly you say (redacted) suddenly has the idea that maybe his 21 mother has borderline personality disorder, right? 22 A. (redacted) mentioned to me during his marriage to 23 Teresa there had been multiple discussions about Teresa's 24 brother having borderline personality disorder. 25 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. Real specific. 35
1 A. I thought that was pretty specific. 2 Q. All right. So your husband gave you the okay 3 to purchase the book? 4 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I think she's answered that 5 three times now, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Now, did you tell your husband what you were 9 going to do with the book? 10 A. I purchased the book and -- 11 THE COURT: The answer (sic) is did you tell 12 him what you were going to do with the book? I mean it makes 13 it easier, ma'am, if you just listen to the question and 14 answer specifically his question. If you feel it needs an 15 explanation, you may explain your answer, okay? 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. 18 A. Did I tell him what I was going to do with the 19 book? Yes. 20 Q. What did you tell him you were going to do with 21 the book? 22 A. I told him I was going to read the book myself. 23 Q. Okay. Anything else? 24 A. I told him that upon reading the book, you 25 know, I asked him if he would read the book. 36
1 Q. And what was his response? 2 A. "I'll read the book." 3 Q. Did he read the book? 4 A. As far as I know, yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 Q. He read the whole book? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Okay. And then what? What were you going to 9 do after that? 10 A. Should (redacted) ask again a specific, pointed 11 question, I would do the best of my ability, not being a 12 mental health professional, to try to calm him down if he 13 came with questions again on why does Mom act the way she's 14 acting, because the title of the book is helping the children 15 transcend, you know -- 16 Q. The borderline personality? 17 A. Transcend a volatile relationship. 18 Q. So is it your position that at 11 years old, 19 (redacted) had diagnosed his mother with suffering from 20 borderline personality disorder, and it was your job to then 21 take it -- help him deal with his mother's borderline 22 personality disorder? 23 A. I felt it was my role as a parent to help a kid 24 who was hurting. 25 Q. Yeah, with the borderline personality book? 37
1 A. The book is called "Helping Children Transcend 2 A Volatile Relationship". 3 Q. Right. 4 A. Basically, the parts of the book that I relayed 5 to (redacted) were, "(redacted), it's not your fault." 6 Q. Okay. Now, let's back up a little bit. Did 7 you ever discuss with your husband maybe consulting with a 8 mental health professional about how to deal with this? 9 A. Once again, to the best of -- 10 Q. The question is real specific. 11 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, I'm going to object 12 because he's already asked her that question. 13 THE COURT: I don't know. 14 MR. DUCOTE: This is a different question. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Did you discuss with your husband, well, about 18 consulting with a mental health professional rather than you 19 taking this upon yourself? 20 A. I'm sure we did, and it was both our opinions 21 that there was no one we could go to. 22 Q. It was your job to do? Okay. 23 A. There's no one to go to. What could we do? 24 Q. Sure, okay. 25 A. Should I have -- should we just do nothing? I 38
1 mean -- 2 Q. As opposed to what you did, yes. 3 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Be an objection, your Honor, 4 to counsel's comments. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. She asked the question. 6 Overruled. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Now, did you ever sit down with (redacted) with 9 that book in you hands? 10 A. That's the question? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. I showed him the cover. He wanted to read the 13 book. And I said, "No, it's not, you know, a kid's -- it's 14 not age appropriate," you know. He's like, "No, I really --" 15 he can tend to be precocious, and I said, "Really, this is 16 not an age-appropriate book. What I would like to do is I'd 17 like to read it and then just, you know, whenever, you know, 18 you want --" it was just very, like, a flowing kind of, you 19 know. I wasn't sitting down, like, these are, you know, 20 here, it's school time now, you know. 21 Q. But when you discussed this book with (redacted), 22 it was clearly conveyed as something that had to do with his 23 mother, this book, right? 24 A. The discussions would be if (redacted) was upset, 25 here's why I'm upset, and what I took from that book is -- 39
1 Q. That's not my question, ma'am. 2 A. Well, okay. 3 Q. My question is real specific. When you 4 discussed this with (redacted), this book, it was conveyed to 5 (redacted) that this book related to his mother, correct? 6 A. I did not convey that to (redacted). What I 7 conveyed to (redacted) was the things he was going through was 8 not his fault. That's what I conveyed to (redacted). 9 Q. Based on this book, right? 10 A. Based -- what I was taking out of this book was 11 getting through to this kid that feeling this pressure, it's 12 not his fault, take the pressure off his shoulders. 13 Q. But the context of it all was his mother had 14 this borderline personality disorder, right? 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Judge, he's asked that 16 question. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. It's cross. I don't 18 know if this witness is as if on cross, or is it -- 19 MR. DUCOTE: Yes, sir. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He never asked for that. 22 THE COURT: I know he didn't. 23 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He subpoenaed her. 24 MR. DUCOTE: There was no objection. But 25 obviously she's an adverse witness. Isn't that -- 40
1 THE COURT: Go ahead. 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: I think he has to declare 3 that before -- 4 MR. DUCOTE: Then I would ask for that 5 declaration. 6 THE COURT: Go ahead. It'll be granted. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. Did you ever read anything specific to (redacted) 9 from the book? 10 A. No, I did not. I didn't feel it was age 11 appropriate. 12 Q. Well, did you discuss with (redacted) the 13 different types of mothers that are represented in the book? 14 A. No, I did not. 15 Q. Did (redacted) look at the book? 16 A. He saw the cover, yes. 17 Q. Didn't see the contents, table of contents? 18 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 19 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach again, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Yes, please. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Did you ever discuss with (redacted) the hermit 23 mother? 24 A. Not in those terms, no. 25 Q. Well, in what terms did you discuss the hermit 41
1 mother with (redacted)? 2 A. (redacted) would relay, "Why is Mom only friends 3 with her family?" I would say, "You know, (redacted), I don't 4 know. The good thing is you have friends," you know. But 5 did I discuss the term "hermit mother"? No, I did not. 6 Q. Did you discuss the term "witch mother" with 7 him? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You remember in your deposition which was taken 10 on January 14th, 2004, page 47, asking you on line 13, "Did 11 you use the term 'hermit mother' with him?" 12 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Counsel -- or your Honor, can 13 I have a second to dig this out? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Page 47? Okay. 16 BY MR. DUCOTE: 17 Q. Page 47, line 13, "Did you use the term 'hermit 18 mother' with him?" You remember your answer? 19 A. I would think it's the same that I said now. 20 Q. It is? 21 A. Not specifically. 22 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you your deposition. 23 Line 47. 24 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Your Honor, I think that the 25 appropriate way to -- 42
1 MR. DUCOTE: I can read it to her. 2 MR. MASTRUSERIO: -- do that is to ask her 3 first the question, and then -- 4 MR. DUCOTE: I already did. 5 MR. MASTRUSERIO: He can then read the question 6 and her response. 7 BY MR. DUCOTE: 8 Q. In your deposition, did you say, "Possibly."? 9 A. Possibly I did. 10 Q. Possibly you did? 11 A. Say that in my deposition. 12 Q. Is that your answer today, that you possibly 13 used the term "hermit mother" with him? 14 A. I don't believe I did. 15 Q. Okay. But in your deposition -- 16 MR. DUCOTE: May I show her the deposition, 17 your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 BY MR. DUCOTE: 20 Q. I asked you on line 13, page 47, "Did you use 21 the term 'hermit mother' with him?" What was your answer on 22 line 14? 23 A. "Possibly." 24 Q. Okay. So is your answer today the same? 25 A. Possibly I don't believe I did. 43 1 Q. Now, did you explain to (redacted) that the hermit 2 mother sounds like his mother? 3 A. Like I said, when discussing -- 4 Q. It's a real direct question, ma'am. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Did you ever describe to (redacted) or explain to 7 (redacted) that the hermit mother sounds like his mother? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Do you remember being asked that in your 10 deposition? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Page 47, line 15, I asked you, "And did 13 you explain that this book you read describes the hermit 14 mother and that sounds like his mother? You're under oath, 15 ma'am." Do you know what your answer was on line 20? 16 A. No. 17 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes, please. 19 BY MR. DUCOTE: 20 Q. What's your answer on line 20? 21 A. "I mean, possibly." 22 Q. Now, were you relating to your husband the fact 23 that you were having these conversations with (redacted) about 24 his mother? Did you discuss that with your husband? 25 A. I was relating the fact that (redacted) was upset 44
1 and, you know, we were talking about it. 2 Q. And was he supportive of what you were doing? 3 A. I mean, both of us were supportive of trying to 4 calm this kid down. 5 Q. But was he supportive of what you were doing 6 with the book and how you were using this with (redacted)? 7 A. We felt the book -- 8 Q. It's a real direct, simple question, ma'am. 9 Was he supportive of what you were doing? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Now, on this issue of the hermit mother, 12 did you ever tell (redacted) -- discuss with (redacted) what this 13 book says is the hermit mother? 14 A. I did not read any particular excerpts from the 15 book to (redacted), no. 16 Q. Well, did you talk to him about what this book 17 says is a hermit mother? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You remember being asked in your deposition on 20 line 46 -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Page 46, line 15, "Did you 23 talk to him about what this book describes as the hermit 24 mother?" Do you know what your answer was on line 23? 25 A. If I had to guess, was it "possibly"? 45
1 Q. Almost. 2 MR. DUCOTE: May I approach, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 BY MR. DUCOTE: 5 Q. Line 46. I'm sorry, line 23, what's your 6 answer? 7 A. "I may have." 8 Q. Now, have you ever used the term "crazy" in 9 discussing Teresa (redacted) with (redacted)? 10 A. In terms of her actions only. 11 Q. Yes. So you have used the term "crazy"? 12 A. The term "crazy" has been used in describing 13 her actions. 14 Q. How many times? 15 A. It depends on how many times the kids will 16 relate actions that clearly seem crazy. 17 Q. Okay. So whenever they say something that you 18 think is crazy on Teresa's part, you tell the kids that 19 that's crazy, correct? 20 A. Say those actions, you know, are not right. 21 Q. You use the term "crazy", right? 22 A. At certain times, yes. It depends on the 23 severity. I mean, if they're reporting a story of how 24 they're being put in a closet and made to draw pictures of 25 penises and vaginas , yes ,we usually will relate that as 46
1 crazy. 2 Q. The kids are telling you that they're being put 3 in a closet and made to draw penises and vaginas? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. When was that? 6 A. Just this past weekend. 7 Q. Okay. And who did you report that to? 8 A. We didn't report it to anyone. 9 Q. Yeah. Has (redacted) ever told you that he 10 believes he now has borderline personality disorder? 11 A. No, he has not told me that. 12 Q. Okay. Are you aware that he's told Kira 13 Kerstine that? 14 A. I'm not aware of that, no. 15 Q. Your husband didn't -- you haven't heard 16 anything about what she said in her deposition? 17 MR. MASTRUSERIO: Objection, your Honor. She 18 answered the question. 19 MR. DUCOTE: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 BY MR. DUCOTE: 22 Q. Now, do you have any regrets as you sit here 23 today about the discussions that you've had with (redacted) 24 about his mother? 25 A. I don't have any regrets in that I tried to 47
1 handle his questions the best way that I could. 2 Q. And you -- 3 A. I do believe (redacted) is an extremely 4 suggestible child. 5 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. Do you have any regrets? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You intend to continue to do what you've been 10 doing, right? 11 A. Trying to help him, yes. 12 Q. You continue to do -- attempt to do it the same 13 way, right? 14 A. Try to help him, yes. 15 Q. And you continue -- you intend to continue 16 using the book the same way? 17 A. My husband and I would like to get him into -- 18 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. Do you plan to 19 continue using the "Understanding the Borderline Mother" the 20 same way? 21 A. Well, I'm sure that that book has been poured 22 over in his, you know, mother's house. So at this point -- 23 Q. Ma'am, that's not the question. Is it -- 24 A. At this point, I probably would not resort back 25 to the book, no. 48
1 Q. Okay. Now, have you and your husband made any 2 specific decisions to change the way that you deal with 3 (redacted) relative to his mother? 4 A. (redacted) and I would like to get (redacted) and 5 (redacted) -- I don't know why nobody's talking about (redacted) 6 here -- we would like to get them in therapy. 7 Q. That's not the question, ma'am. The question 8 is have you and your husband at any point made a conscious 9 decision that you are going to discuss Teresa with (redacted) in 10 a different way than you all have been doing in the past? 11 A. I -- I'm sorry. If you could -- 12 Q. I'll ask it again. Maybe I'm not being clear. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Have you and your husband made a specific 15 decision to do different -- do things differently than the 16 way that you discuss (redacted)'s mother with (redacted)? 17 A. I don't believe that we have ever tried to 18 blatantly demean his mother. 19 Q. Ma'am, that's not the question. The question</ |
